## **How does the sports industry score for sustainability?** ### To make sport truly sustainable, there needs to be a range of initiatives in place, from encouraging fans to go greener to improving biodiversity at stadiums. ![](/sites/g/files/dvc1681/files/styles/crop_freeform/public/image/2022/12/LinkedIn%20Lives%20podcast%20banners%20%281%29.jpg.webp?itok=FDwJAvPo) [ Start Listening ](#panel_109246) **In this Sustainability in Sport podcast Simon Futcher, Commercial Business Development Director at Veolia UK, is joined by Antony Isherwood, the Community Director at Birmingham City Football Community Trust, to take a deep dive into the initiatives that sports stadiums community trusts are implementing to drive sustainability credentials.** #iframe-field_media_veolia_iframe-39001 {/*frameborder*/ border-width:0;/*scrolling*/ overflow:auto;} Your browser does not support iframes, but you can visit [](https://open.spotify.com/embed/episode/6If1FA01242caOymrXipJA?utm_source=generator&theme=0) ### Sustainability in Sport - Transcription 00:00:00:00 - 00:00:02:15 Good afternoon and welcome to all of our listeners 00:00:02:15 - 00:00:07:05 for the second episode of the Veolia Sustainability in Sport Podcast. 00:00:07:21 - 00:00:10:22 I'm joined today by Antony Isherwood, the community director 00:00:10:23 - 00:00:13:04 at Birmingham City Football Community Trust. 00:00:14:02 - 00:00:17:09 And as per our first episode, we will be taking a slightly deeper 00:00:17:09 - 00:00:21:05 dive into the initiatives that the sport football stadiums, community 00:00:21:06 - 00:00:24:18 trust's are implementing to drive their sustainability credentials. 00:00:26:04 - 00:00:27:13 Antony, firstly, welcome. 00:00:27:13 - 00:00:28:23 Thank you very much for being with us. 00:00:28:23 - 00:00:31:00 Thanks for having me. Pleasure. 00:00:31:03 - 00:00:35:02 First question what's the biggest challenges clubs and trusts are facing 00:00:35:02 - 00:00:37:21 when trying to drive community initiatives at this moment in time? 00:00:38:22 - 00:00:42:01 I think the biggest challenge we face as a football clubs 00:00:42:03 - 00:00:45:15 community trust within the city of Birmingham is very much we're out there, 00:00:45:15 - 00:00:49:08 we're trying to send a message surrounding long term environmental sustainability. 00:00:49:14 - 00:00:53:05 And when you mention those two words, the first thing our communities are 00:00:53:05 - 00:00:55:02 concerned about is cost. 00:00:55:02 - 00:00:57:20 That is the big problem we have. 00:00:59:01 - 00:01:01:12 So we're very much trying at the moment 00:01:01:12 - 00:01:06:05 to support those local communities, very much in educating them that it's not 00:01:06:05 - 00:01:09:19 you know, it's not about spending lots of money. 00:01:09:24 - 00:01:14:03 There's a small things that we can do to support long term development. 00:01:14:10 - 00:01:15:11 And just linked to that. 00:01:15:11 - 00:01:18:11 Do you find that sustainability 00:01:18:18 - 00:01:21:02 versus profit type conversation 00:01:22:02 - 00:01:24:16 always seems to come up first, or is it a case of, you know, 00:01:24:18 - 00:01:27:04 let's talk about the initiatives and then understand the cost thereafter? 00:01:27:20 - 00:01:30:07 Yeah, I just think it's an immediate barrier that comes out. 00:01:30:07 - 00:01:32:21 I think at the moment, environmental sustainability is all over 00:01:32:22 - 00:01:35:01 the news, it's all over government agenda as well. 00:01:35:01 - 00:01:38:21 I think our communities are picking up snippets here and there, and the snippets 00:01:38:22 - 00:01:41:21 they're picking up when they're listening to the news is very much around 00:01:42:09 - 00:01:44:16 big costs, big, big, big barriers. 00:01:45:01 - 00:01:49:00 And what we're trying to say very much to our communities is 00:01:49:16 - 00:01:53:15 we can take small steps and there's no cost to these steps. 00:01:53:16 - 00:01:56:15 It's about ourselves being more understanding, more aware, 00:01:56:23 - 00:02:01:02 and actually educating ourselves and our communities more. 00:02:01:13 - 00:02:02:18 Absolutely. 00:02:03:01 - 00:02:04:23 And I suppose from a footballing perspective, 00:02:06:03 - 00:02:07:03 how can football 00:02:07:03 - 00:02:11:05 benefit, you know, the local communities benefit and really drive home 00:02:11:05 - 00:02:14:03 a more sustainable message when it comes to, you know, changing behaviour. 00:02:14:14 - 00:02:15:24 So this is where 00:02:15:24 - 00:02:17:24 all football clubs are blessed because we've got platforms, 00:02:18:02 - 00:02:21:05 we've got social media reach, we've got platforms across 00:02:21:05 - 00:02:24:08 all social media websites, and we attract engagement. 00:02:24:19 - 00:02:27:08 What we've got to do is use that positive use, 00:02:27:08 - 00:02:29:08 the fact that people want to see what's going on on our website. 00:02:29:08 - 00:02:32:05 They want to see what is the latest news at Birmingham City. 00:02:32:15 - 00:02:36:14 And when we captured them engaging in that first in that first step 00:02:36:14 - 00:02:40:12 of that first moment, very much, then start talking to them about 00:02:40:21 - 00:02:44:14 where we are and where we can get to, you know, on real cool 00:02:44:14 - 00:02:47:22 things that are going to have an impact on all of us in some way or form. 00:02:48:07 - 00:02:51:24 From a generation perspective, I suppose in terms of the digital aspect 00:02:51:24 - 00:02:53:24 and that social media platform that you referenced there 00:02:55:00 - 00:02:57:10 as the football club made a really conscious effort to 00:02:57:10 - 00:03:00:22 then start to change the nature and the style of its communication. 00:03:00:22 - 00:03:03:00 It starts to go out to its fanbase that to to 00:03:03:08 - 00:03:06:15 I suppose demonstrate that there are more sustainable ways to communicate. 00:03:06:22 - 00:03:09:07 Yeah, absolutely. Again, small steps. 00:03:09:07 - 00:03:11:11 I mean, if we go back a couple of years, the football club 00:03:11:11 - 00:03:15:01 was sending out any information figures to match days or incentives or schemes. 00:03:15:08 - 00:03:16:10 They were letters. 00:03:16:10 - 00:03:19:13 But, you know, the amount of paper that was going out was frightening. 00:03:19:20 - 00:03:22:05 All of the information now that's going out to our season ticket 00:03:22:05 - 00:03:25:06 holders, our club members, is all electronically, 00:03:25:11 - 00:03:29:20 it's all sent via emails and it's an, you know, we need to role model. 00:03:30:16 - 00:03:33:06 You know, I'll keep mentioning small steps, simplistic approaches. 00:03:33:06 - 00:03:36:03 We need to role model them to our communities, to our fan base. 00:03:36:08 - 00:03:38:13 So, you know, if we can do it, so can they. 00:03:38:17 - 00:03:39:23 Absolutely. Absolutely. 00:03:41:07 - 00:03:44:00 Carbon is obviously at the forefront of many conversations. 00:03:44:00 - 00:03:46:04 You know, we've seen in sport and we've seen in football, that 00:03:46:10 - 00:03:49:19 the net zero game that was held at Tottenham, 00:03:49:19 - 00:03:52:13 you know, with Sky Sports 00:03:52:20 - 00:03:54:05 and there was a for me 00:03:54:05 - 00:03:57:15 there's an obvious intrinsic link between small the environment. 00:03:58:02 - 00:04:02:07 Certainly some of the aspects we've seen around biodiversity is as a prime example. 00:04:03:06 - 00:04:06:17 Well, action from your perspective I suppose as a sport taking to protect 00:04:07:01 - 00:04:10:23 and reduce carbon emissions when it comes to communities, community projects. 00:04:11:07 - 00:04:14:24 So again over the last six, 6 to 12 months 00:04:15:06 - 00:04:16:10 and there's a couple of initiatives 00:04:16:10 - 00:04:19:20 come out and I've being fully backed by the Premier League, by the EFL, 00:04:19:20 - 00:04:22:21 by the FA, Planet Super League is one of them. 00:04:22:21 - 00:04:24:20 Really, really good concept, 00:04:24:20 - 00:04:28:16 which is, you know, again, it's educating young children very much 00:04:28:16 - 00:04:34:13 about the impact of carbon emissions and how we can play a part in limiting it. 00:04:34:17 - 00:04:38:00 Lessoning it, lowering it, and the real simplistic fixes 00:04:38:00 - 00:04:43:13 and what they've done is in essence, they're turning a real serious topic 00:04:43:13 - 00:04:44:15 that's at the forefront of everyone's 00:04:44:15 - 00:04:47:06 minds at the moment around environmental sustainability 00:04:47:10 - 00:04:50:16 into an enjoyable learning opportunity for young people. 00:04:51:00 - 00:04:54:08 And what we're seeing is that these young people are taking part in, 00:04:54:24 - 00:04:56:20 you know, playing Super League they're going home. 00:04:56:20 - 00:04:58:11 They're talking to their parents about it. 00:04:58:11 - 00:04:59:21 They're challenging their parents. 00:04:59:21 - 00:05:03:03 6, 7 year old mum, dad, you've got to make sure the dishwasher is full. 00:05:03:14 - 00:05:05:05 You know, it's that kind of 00:05:06:08 - 00:05:06:24 situation. 00:05:06:24 - 00:05:08:23 I think the FA are just back again. 00:05:08:23 - 00:05:12:18 And another one which is aimed more for the everyday football fan 00:05:12:21 - 00:05:17:18 who goes to the stadiums, who goes and enjoys the games that they're backing. 00:05:18:03 - 00:05:21:03 The Football Support Association 00:05:21:03 - 00:05:25:08 Pledge Ball, which is very similar and they're calling on fans. 00:05:25:08 - 00:05:27:06 Right. You tell us what you're doing. 00:05:27:06 - 00:05:30:09 So as a Birmingham City fan, can you let us know what you are 00:05:30:09 - 00:05:34:03 doing to make a difference for, you know, surrounding carbon emissions? 00:05:34:09 - 00:05:38:02 And as they show and as they share they move up the league. 00:05:38:10 - 00:05:40:18 And let's be fair, every single football fan loves winning. 00:05:40:18 - 00:05:43:05 And that's and again, they're just two initiatives 00:05:43:05 - 00:05:45:11 that have come out at the moment are having such impact. 00:05:45:16 - 00:05:48:10 And I'm actually quite excited to see where they go in the next 12 months. 00:05:48:18 - 00:05:49:13 Agreed, I mean 00:05:50:19 - 00:05:52:18 they are two great points and I certainly echo to listeners 00:05:52:18 - 00:05:57:02 to take some time to understand Super Planet, Super League and Pledge Ball 00:05:57:24 - 00:05:58:23 particularly because, you know, 00:05:58:23 - 00:06:00:21 I'm sure we've got a lot football fans who will be listening. 00:06:00:21 - 00:06:03:19 Yes. And will probably want to stand where their teams are in those leagues. 00:06:03:19 - 00:06:05:02 And as you say, everyone wants to see their team 00:06:05:02 - 00:06:09:01 rise up the league, certainly not going the other direction 00:06:09:12 - 00:06:10:18 from a 00:06:11:03 - 00:06:14:03 I suppose how well it's publicised and how we communicate this 00:06:14:03 - 00:06:16:12 into the communities and to the fan base. 00:06:17:15 - 00:06:20:23 From your perspective, how publicised are those sport, sustainability, 00:06:20:23 - 00:06:23:22 local initiatives and what impacts are they are they having? 00:06:25:08 - 00:06:27:15 I think what we've got to be aware of 00:06:27:15 - 00:06:31:13 and we are very much as a community trustees, we've got two groups 00:06:31:13 - 00:06:32:16 that we need to really engage. 00:06:32:16 - 00:06:35:17 We've got our football fan base and we've got our local communities. 00:06:35:17 - 00:06:37:21 They don't always go hand-in-hand. 00:06:37:21 - 00:06:41:04 So the benefits in terms of the two initiatives I've just mentioned there, 00:06:41:09 - 00:06:42:14 which are endorsed fully, 00:06:43:20 - 00:06:45:23 are great because it's going out to our fan base. 00:06:45:23 - 00:06:48:12 But we then, we the community trust of the football club 00:06:48:15 - 00:06:50:24 have a responsibility to also make sure 00:06:51:06 - 00:06:54:22 we are providing information and updates that are relevant to our local communities 00:06:54:23 - 00:06:58:23 on our doorstep around the same, you know, agenda. 00:06:59:07 - 00:07:00:15 That's really, really key. 00:07:00:15 - 00:07:03:07 Okay. 00:07:03:07 - 00:07:05:07 And as part of that, I suppose, in terms of the impact, 00:07:06:00 - 00:07:09:02 what type of activities are are the Birmingham City 00:07:09:03 - 00:07:11:22 Community Trust doing, I suppose, in terms of making a difference 00:07:11:22 - 00:07:13:06 in those kind of footballing communities? 00:07:13:06 - 00:07:17:19 And how are you there for then, I suppose, bridging some of those gaps. 00:07:18:12 - 00:07:20:15 So we've been really, really fortunate this year 00:07:21:09 - 00:07:24:12 whereby we were doing a lot of work very closely with Veolia Birmingham. 00:07:24:23 - 00:07:28:21 And what we're saying is now we're going to utilise the knowledge 00:07:28:21 - 00:07:33:16 and expertise that we've been given from Veolia and take it into straightaway. 00:07:33:18 - 00:07:34:17 We are going to now 00:07:34:17 - 00:07:37:16 roll out a brand new education package to young children's schools. 00:07:38:02 - 00:07:40:01 So playing a part. 00:07:40:01 - 00:07:44:03 But what what we have made a pledge to in terms of long term environmental sustainability 00:07:44:03 - 00:07:46:20 as a as football clubs, community trust is very much role model 00:07:47:14 - 00:07:50:08 what can be done and how it can be done as well. 00:07:50:13 - 00:07:52:20 So a few initiatives that we've really took on board 00:07:52:20 - 00:07:55:23 now is that we're promoting the ride to work scheme for all of our employees. 00:07:57:00 - 00:07:58:15 We are now looking at providing 00:07:58:15 - 00:08:01:11 opportunities for all of our employees to look at electric car leases, 00:08:01:19 - 00:08:05:21 which is again being seen as a big benefit to them at the moment. 00:08:06:10 - 00:08:10:03 We know for all of our staff at the Trust we now commit two days 00:08:11:18 - 00:08:14:01 of their working 00:08:14:01 - 00:08:18:07 year, rather, to go and work on a project in the local community. 00:08:18:07 - 00:08:20:21 So absolutely, absolutely crucial. 00:08:20:21 - 00:08:24:23 And again, we see every opportunity we have to engage with and interact 00:08:24:24 - 00:08:27:04 with the communities is an opportunity to educate. 00:08:27:24 - 00:08:31:04 And we're not saying, we know everything it's an opportunity for us to learn 00:08:31:04 - 00:08:35:02 more as well and to further understand the barriers as to 00:08:35:02 - 00:08:39:24 why people may not be moving forwards with the long term sustainability. 00:08:40:05 - 00:08:41:22 Okay, fantastic. 00:08:41:22 - 00:08:44:03 How easy is the process? I mean, obviously 00:08:45:14 - 00:08:47:06 loads of clubs in the EFL, 00:08:47:06 - 00:08:50:20 a number of community trust that I'm sure you speak with on a regular basis. 00:08:52:06 - 00:08:53:03 What is that process? 00:08:53:03 - 00:08:55:14 How easy is that process from a, you know, a point of view 00:08:55:14 - 00:09:00:01 of sharing best practices between clubs, community trusts and where, I suppose, 00:09:00:01 - 00:09:03:12 where does the FA support that as well in terms of trying to accelerate, 00:09:03:12 - 00:09:06:02 are the key learnings or the sharing of those initiatives? 00:09:06:02 - 00:09:06:15 Yeah. 00:09:06:20 - 00:09:10:11 So in terms of where we're at as a community trust, so we are very fortunate. 00:09:10:11 - 00:09:12:13 Well, I am very fortunate whereby, you know, 00:09:12:13 - 00:09:15:01 I have a variety of communication with all the heads of communities 00:09:15:01 - 00:09:16:09 within all of the Midlands clubs. 00:09:16:09 - 00:09:19:03 So we are continuously looking at and sharing best practice 00:09:19:21 - 00:09:23:14 in terms of achieving our long term goals around environment sustainability 00:09:23:20 - 00:09:26:17 and and that can be through our WhatsApp groups 00:09:26:17 - 00:09:28:24 that can be through some emails that can be for when we meet up 00:09:29:13 - 00:09:31:14 every quarter of the season. 00:09:31:14 - 00:09:33:11 So that's really going well. 00:09:33:11 - 00:09:35:14 And we've taken some great ideas from the clubs 00:09:35:14 - 00:09:36:21 who are really pushing forward 00:09:36:21 - 00:09:40:08 as well with it as as we have shared, you know, we've shared with the clubs 00:09:40:08 - 00:09:44:01 like, you know, our volunteer recycling workforce that do before and after games. 00:09:44:13 - 00:09:47:05 So that's really, really good what we've now done as well. 00:09:47:05 - 00:09:50:20 There's now you know, now it's important and where we've seen the gap 00:09:50:20 - 00:09:53:02 and the need for further work is very much right. 00:09:53:02 - 00:09:56:14 So we are doing this now on the ground within the communities. 00:09:56:18 - 00:09:59:13 We've now got to really build that bridge and make sure that 00:09:59:21 - 00:10:02:10 the information in the sharing is between community trust and club. 00:10:02:13 - 00:10:04:02 Sure. So how's that been done, 00:10:04:02 - 00:10:06:15 so there's now a Employment Sustainability Working Group, 00:10:06:18 - 00:10:08:10 which consists of key members 00:10:08:10 - 00:10:12:00 of the football club and key members of the Community Trust coming together. 00:10:13:17 - 00:10:14:15 And then again, 00:10:14:15 - 00:10:17:22 the plan is there that, you know, the way we what we want to be, we want to be seen 00:10:17:22 - 00:10:20:16 Birmingham City Football Club is doing the right things for the right reasons. 00:10:20:16 - 00:10:21:09 And hopefully that can be 00:10:21:09 - 00:10:25:03 a model of success because, you know, one of the things we are aware of whilst 00:10:25:03 - 00:10:25:14 I started 00:10:25:14 - 00:10:29:06 the conversation with the biggest concern for people in our communities is cost, 00:10:29:17 - 00:10:33:21 you know, around environmental sustainability long term. 00:10:33:21 - 00:10:38:02 At some point, if we really want to then start making the huge strides 00:10:38:02 - 00:10:41:14 we can, get the vehicle moving on the journey, 00:10:41:18 - 00:10:43:19 but then there will be costs and that's where we have to look 00:10:44:00 - 00:10:47:05 to the responsibilities of our parent clubs, of course, to see 00:10:47:05 - 00:10:48:14 as to where we can go with it. 00:10:48:14 - 00:10:49:20 And it's a really it's a really good point. 00:10:49:20 - 00:10:51:11 And I suppose, you know, without 00:10:52:21 - 00:10:55:19 asking something too controversial, 00:10:55:19 - 00:10:59:04 clearly, that's a massive conduit catalyst. 00:10:59:04 - 00:11:02:13 Because if the if the football club isn't aligned 00:11:02:13 - 00:11:05:19 with the community trust, then, you know, you're going to find obvious blockers. 00:11:05:19 - 00:11:07:19 You're going to find obvious challenges that make it difficult 00:11:07:20 - 00:11:11:16 to move some of those things forward. 00:11:11:16 - 00:11:13:24 Not going to mention any names, 00:11:13:24 - 00:11:18:02 but do you find that the appetite is there 00:11:18:10 - 00:11:21:21 when you speak to other community trust who are linked to the football clubs, 00:11:21:21 - 00:11:25:15 Are they saying the same thing, that actually, you know, the environmental 00:11:26:10 - 00:11:29:13 sustainability commitments that they're looking to make are actually helping 00:11:29:13 - 00:11:31:10 bring the community trust and the clubs together 00:11:31:10 - 00:11:34:24 because appreciate they do stand alone at times away from each other. 00:11:34:24 - 00:11:35:11 Yeah. 00:11:36:05 - 00:11:38:19 And as you've rightly just said there, there are some great initiatives 00:11:38:20 - 00:11:42:09 that are cost neutral that can absolutely 00:11:42:24 - 00:11:45:19 be put into play and delivered now. 00:11:45:19 - 00:11:47:22 But there will come a point, there will be a tipping point where, 00:11:48:06 - 00:11:48:19 you know, 00:11:48:19 - 00:11:50:12 there is going to need to be some investment, 00:11:50:12 - 00:11:52:17 there may need to be some projects that require funding. 00:11:52:17 - 00:11:56:10 And at that point, they're going to expect the football clubs to to support. 00:11:56:10 - 00:11:56:19 Yeah. 00:11:57:18 - 00:11:59:16 Is this relationship tight enough? 00:11:59:16 - 00:12:00:01 There is 00:12:00:01 - 00:12:00:24 is there an acceptance 00:12:00:24 - 00:12:04:01 and an appetite to say that, you know, we see that's what's coming in the roadmap 00:12:04:01 - 00:12:06:05 and we're ready for it? Or is it is there still work to do? 00:12:06:05 - 00:12:07:19 Yeah, no, I think that's what we're planning for. 00:12:07:19 - 00:12:08:11 Yeah. You know, 00:12:08:11 - 00:12:11:11 that is the agenda of our working group between trust and club. 00:12:12:02 - 00:12:12:23 We're very fortunate. 00:12:12:23 - 00:12:16:00 We've got some real forward thinking people on our senior management 00:12:16:04 - 00:12:17:06 at the club 00:12:17:16 - 00:12:21:15 who are very, very passionate about taking the club into the new ways, 00:12:21:17 - 00:12:24:02 surrounded by environmental sustainability. 00:12:24:09 - 00:12:25:21 So we're hoping that 00:12:25:21 - 00:12:29:01 when we get to that stage where we need to then start looking bigger picture 00:12:29:19 - 00:12:32:10 and we have role modled our behaviours and taking them 00:12:32:10 - 00:12:35:16 small steps across our communities, we will have that backing. 00:12:36:04 - 00:12:36:19 To move forward 00:12:38:00 - 00:12:38:22 really insightful Antony. 00:12:38:22 - 00:12:40:23 really appreciate your time 00:12:40:23 - 00:12:43:24 and your comments today 00:12:45:01 - 00:12:48:00 with everything that you've seen over the last 12 or 18 months of this journey, 00:12:48:00 - 00:12:50:15 certainly from the sustainability perspective of the trust, 00:12:51:00 - 00:12:53:21 if there was one sort of clear message or clear action 00:12:54:00 - 00:12:56:09 that you would leave people with, that will start them 00:12:57:24 - 00:13:00:22 on a journey to a to have an impact in this area. 00:13:00:22 - 00:13:01:20 What would it be? 00:13:02:04 - 00:13:05:02 I think very much we have to all be aware 00:13:05:10 - 00:13:08:13 that little steps by lots of people make a big difference. 00:13:09:03 - 00:13:13:02 And if we all get on board all the communities, the fan base as well, 00:13:13:02 - 00:13:15:18 we can make a big difference with those little steps. 00:13:16:02 - 00:13:17:07 Fantastic. 00:13:17:14 - 00:13:19:17 And I think, you know, it's 00:13:19:17 - 00:13:21:21 one of the things I see and I think one of the big things 00:13:22:13 - 00:13:26:03 that we absolutely as a sporting community needs to be better at, 00:13:26:07 - 00:13:29:13 and I think it absolutely aligns to what you've just said there in the fact that, 00:13:30:15 - 00:13:33:15 yes, it's fantastic when we see some of these net zero events taking place 00:13:33:15 - 00:13:38:09 now, it's not as easy for organisations or for clubs or for trusts 00:13:38:10 - 00:13:41:10 necessarily to go from a standing start into a complete net zero event. 00:13:41:13 - 00:13:44:16 Yet actually some of these initiatives in these these projects 00:13:44:16 - 00:13:47:16 that can be delivered now are moving people in those areas. 00:13:47:16 - 00:13:48:09 And even if it's something 00:13:48:09 - 00:13:51:04 as small as identifying, you know, an individual's carbon footprint 00:13:51:11 - 00:13:55:02 and what they can do to impact that, then it's 00:13:55:02 - 00:13:56:17 just another step in the right direction. 00:13:56:17 - 00:13:57:21 It's going to leverage that. 00:13:57:21 - 00:13:58:10 Absolutely. 00:13:58:10 - 00:14:00:17 And it's that mindset, that mentality. 00:14:00:24 - 00:14:02:22 Any step forward is better than no step at all. 00:14:02:22 - 00:14:04:03 Absolutely right. 00:14:04:03 - 00:14:06:00 Antony, thank you ever so much for today. 00:14:06:00 - 00:14:07:21 I really appreciate your time and your comments. 00:14:07:21 - 00:14:10:12 Hopefully, our listeners have certainly found that very insightful. 00:14:10:12 - 00:14:11:17 I know I have 00:14:11:19 - 00:14:15:13 and look forward to episode three in the very near future. 00:14:15:15 - 00:14:19:18 Thanks for listening.