Talking plastics with RECOUP

00:00:00:13 - 00:00:09:00

Speaker 1

Martin Fuller. I am the head of marketing responsible business and proposals here at the earlier I'm joined today by Tom. Tom would like to introduce yourself.

 

00:00:09:18 - 00:00:32:13

Speaker 2

Thank you. I'm Tom Macbeth from the publicity district manager at Reekie. We're a plastics membership organisation, and we've around 270 members from across the plastic supply chain. So we have waste management companies, local authorities, academia, packaging manufacturers, that kind of thing. So yeah, quite a deep imprint into the packaging sector in the UK.

 

00:00:33:01 - 00:00:49:02

Speaker 1

Obviously, you just did not want to talk today to find out about the plastic packaging tax. The plastic packaging tax. It started well two weeks ago. Now I'm. What's happened since? Have you noticed anything?

 

00:00:50:15 - 00:01:25:09

Speaker 2

In terms of the introduction of tax? It was a couple of weeks ago. It was quite a lot of build up to see it introduced, quite a lot of questions floating around, quite low guidance floating around. I think at the moment we're seeing particularly from our membership base, same questions largely being discussed. And I think really now we're at a point where June will be the first real test of whether manufacturers and organisations are liable or exempt from the tax to see if they're equipped to be able to provide the information that's needed.

 

00:01:26:10 - 00:01:36:08

Speaker 2

So I think we're kind of now in that sort of interim period waiting for the first true test of the tax. And the guidance has been shared.

 

00:01:37:00 - 00:01:55:15

Speaker 1

It is one of those things, anyway, where we're waiting to see the impact. We're waiting to see what happens. And I guess we won't really know until people start to do the returns and start to have to report exactly how well it is going. But we know about the tax. You know, we know the ins and outs. Do you think it goes far enough?

 

00:01:57:00 - 00:02:24:21

Speaker 2

I think at the moment, yes, there's still a lot of barriers. If it was to be a wider ranging tax, I think there would still be a lot of barriers that are in place that would prevent it from. So, for example, food, contact, packaging is brought up a lot and has been throughout the food discussion periods for the last couple of years and, and the limitations of including recycled content in that kind of application.

 

00:02:24:21 - 00:02:49:14

Speaker 2

We know that that's something that's been looked at by the industry for a number of reasons. So I think from the tax perspective, it's probably important to allow it to be bedded and to see the impact that the current sort of set up is going to have. We also it's been mentioned a lot in discussions of most legislations that have been discussed, but to try and achieve a holistic approach when it comes to them.

 

00:02:49:14 - 00:03:16:01

Speaker 2

So plastic packaging tax obviously only impacts the plastic packaging. We've seen introduction of EPR in the next few years and deposit return schemes being brought in single use plastic bands, consistent collections as there's a long, long list of different consultations that have taken place and different policies that are likely to be introduced across the UK. So it's important that they all sort of work together to achieve the best environmental outcome in terms of.

 

00:03:16:01 - 00:03:37:02

Speaker 1

You're not going to stop you there. I mean, it's you and I are chatting away here because we know about the plastic packaging tax, we know what it's levied on, when it's levied and how. And perhaps there's some people who don't know that. So I was just wondering, can you give me 60 seconds? What do you need to know about the plastic packaging tax if you're watching now and going, well, am I impacted?

 

00:03:37:02 - 00:03:37:17

Speaker 1

Is it me?

 

00:03:38:20 - 00:04:05:20

Speaker 2

Yeah. So the very short answer is that the plastic packaging tax is operated for, if that's the correct way by HMRC. So it's a government funded, it is a tax, it's not a legislation, it's raising funds for industry and it's taxing items of packaging which are predominantly plastic by weight but do not contain waste targeting packaging but are predominantly plastic by weights.

 

00:04:05:20 - 00:04:39:04

Speaker 2

And the exemption for the tax is to contain 50% recycled content within that packaging and a couple of other very limited exemptions such as medicine contact packaging, which has separate legislation, packaging which doesn't contain 50% recycled content, is subject to the tax of £200. Britain and HMRC has provided quite a significant amount of guidance when it comes to the material and the formats that are within scope of what is deemed packaging survive that.

 

00:04:39:06 - 00:04:43:05

Speaker 2

There's a list on their website that's quite, quite in-depth and gives some very good examples.

 

00:04:43:21 - 00:05:01:05

Speaker 1

If I'm a manufacturer and I manufacture products that are in plastic packaging, when I ship them out to my warehouse, I might buy them outdoors. So if there isn't 30% of that plastic content by weight that's made out of recycled plastic, I am going to be subject to this tax. That's, that's what we're saying isn't it.

 

00:05:01:10 - 00:05:27:20

Speaker 2

Essentially, yeah. They said that the import market will be the point of tax to the point of imports and yet that essentially covers it and also micro and organised handling. Less than ten items of packaging are also exempt from the tax, but the burden of proof is very much on the packaging. The person who is trying to verify that they are not eligible to pay the tax.

 

00:05:28:05 - 00:05:32:24

Speaker 2

So the evidence and the liability for that evidence is very much on industry.

 

00:05:32:24 - 00:05:59:07

Speaker 1

It's great. Yeah, that's made it a lot clearer in my mind. So the more I hear it, the more I say it, the more I get to understand it. So thank you for that. You mentioned that HMRC has put out a lot of information and you're right, there's an awful lot of information to be found. We recently conducted a survey with YouGov of businesses across the UK and we were struck by how many reported back that they were unaware of the tax, which is right up to its implementation.

 

00:06:00:06 - 00:06:09:05

Speaker 1

What more do you think needs to be done to engage with businesses into this conversation about recycled plastics, the circular economy and why there is a tax?

 

00:06:10:01 - 00:06:30:21

Speaker 2

And in terms of just going back to the point around HMRC in their guidance, this is quite an extensive amount of guidance that's available on their website quite openly to who is liable for the tax, what is exempt from the tax, what's covered by the tax. So we found HMRC to be very responsive to queries even when they were being inundated at the start of the year.

 

00:06:30:21 - 00:07:02:03

Speaker 2

I suspect that there is a very sort of positive relationship there between HMRC and the sector when it comes to when it comes to the tax a degree with you, there is a significant sort of portion of the market, if you like, that is perhaps less engaged in these sorts of discussions, these policy discussions when it comes to comes to ourselves now our sort of membership and our stakeholders, they're very sort of engaged in the in the environmental sector when it comes to these sorts of things.

 

00:07:02:22 - 00:07:31:13

Speaker 2

On a broader scale, I think that for example, we've engaged with the Chamber of Commerce in Cambridgeshire, which has helped sort of spread the message of not just the tax but the legislation, and that might affect local businesses on a perhaps a more on a more local level. And I think those kinds of partnerships are really important when it comes to explaining the what's and what's wise of the introduction of the policy and also to generally engage businesses when it comes to circular economy aims recycling other environmental issues.

 

00:07:33:00 - 00:07:49:21

Speaker 2

It's obviously been a challenging couple of years, so the priorities have perhaps changed slightly or the areas supporting this have been looking into directions. But yeah, I think that sorting them, that sort of area of the communication sort of a local, local business area is really important.

 

00:07:50:23 - 00:08:03:04

Speaker 1

Who do you think is most responsible for getting that message out there? You know, are HMRC easy organisations like yourselves, is it organisations like Veolia or is it all of us together taking responsibility?

 

00:08:03:04 - 00:08:21:19

Speaker 2

I think, yeah. I mean, if you look at the, you know, HMRC obviously have a have a significant responsibility in one or maybe not a responsibility, but a position when it comes to informing people who are who are eligible to or eligible but impacted by the tax that they what they need to do and when they need to do it.

 

00:08:22:14 - 00:08:51:12

Speaker 2

But in terms of making sure that it's successful and effective and the organisations that are sort of disproportionately burdened with having to provide evidence or, you know, there's so many sorts of variables that could affect different businesses differently than really it is down to all of us. It's down to our sorts of organisations to to engage with our in our case, our members, your customers, local authorities, and even the general public.

 

00:08:51:12 - 00:09:09:15

Speaker 2

I mean, if we're talking about legislation on a wider scale, of course, but the general public and sort of that they need to be made aware that, you know, these costs are going to be passed down one way or another. So, yeah, I think you're right. I think it's a joint effort to try and ensure that everybody who needs to know does know.

 

00:09:10:03 - 00:09:27:24

Speaker 1

I know we've certainly seen a lot of communication. We've put a lot of communication out there to customers and to business sectors and to organisations we work with. And we've seen a lot of uptake in terms of downloads of that data and that information. So I think it's a challenge and I agree with you. I think we're all in this.

 

00:09:27:24 - 00:09:58:03

Speaker 1

We've all got to do something about it. What I was wondering next is, you know, plastics got a bad rap to almost make it very bad. I'll have a better phone later. I'm sure the plastics were vilified. You know, I was just there this weekend. I was out with the family and we were at a zoo, and went to a very small zoo in Lincolnshire.

 

00:09:58:16 - 00:10:18:14

Speaker 1

I will not try to get into the tickets. I won't name them, but I'm one of the talks that was being given about the animals. They started to talk about plastic pollution and contamination and you know, their advice was don't buy anything that's in plastic. Well, does that make sense? You know, is plastic really, really the enemy?

 

00:10:19:15 - 00:10:20:13

Speaker 1

What do you think?

 

00:10:20:13 - 00:10:42:15

Speaker 2

I mean, obviously it has a very important role in a huge, huge amount of areas, you know, across the world. I mean, the medical sector, for example, with. But what would you replace it in plastic applications that have very specific requirements when it comes to, you know, sterilisation or but I know the way for the manufacturer to be flexible and robust.

 

00:10:43:19 - 00:11:08:01

Speaker 2

There's this certainly I mean talking about the plastic packaging types of course, that's that's directly targeted. It's packaging and plastics. The other legislation, of course, hopefully will help to level the playing field in that respect and avoid any sort of material substitution that goes towards a sort of a less generally environmental solution and more of a just get rid of plastic solution.

 

00:11:08:08 - 00:11:30:08

Speaker 2

Yeah, I think COVID is the duration of lockdown and the the huge focus on things like face masks and hygiene and, you know, but discussion of unnecessary packaging and single use packaging, particularly that sort of it was mentioned quite early on in COVID about packaging and things like fruit and veg and in supermarkets, which has long been discussed as a possible and necessary.

 

00:11:31:03 - 00:11:54:18

Speaker 2

But now the sort of the increased focus on hygiene and also food waste in particular, in the end, the role of plastics plays in reducing risks in those respects is hopefully something that is starting to build as a message. But there's still a lot of work to do, in particular in that sector, this kind of sector you describe, but also the general public.

 

00:11:55:10 - 00:12:18:09

Speaker 1

Yeah, it's true. I always when I think about this subject to not talk about plastics and whether plastics are a good or bad thing, I'm reminded of a fantastic program I once saw where they were, showing my initial level of interest. They were digging through a landfill and they could see it was a landfill. It had been in operation for 250 years.

 

00:12:18:09 - 00:12:44:01

Speaker 1

And in one form or another it was an old city dump. And you could see, you know, the different layers and you know, where plastic starts to appear. And you could timeline around the walls around different terms of the century. And you start to think, but what I took from it was the amount of packaging, the plastic we use, but the impact that plastic has had on our lives, it is a necessary material in a lot of ways.

 

00:12:44:01 - 00:13:08:12

Speaker 1

And so for me the responsibility lies with those people like Veolia, like the manufacturers and the producers, to engage in waste fraud. Well, if you were asked to, you know, what would be the one thing a manufacturer who's using plastic packaging, what could they do? What would be the one thing they could do today that would be of a benefit?

 

00:13:09:16 - 00:13:36:13

Speaker 2

So that's a very broad question, isn't it? I think it's important that, you know, any sort of engagement with plastic at any level needs to sort of have a broader understanding and data to back it up and information to back it up. When it comes to the environmental impact, the carbon impact, the greenhouse gas emission impacts, particularly, we see a lot of the, you know, material substitution.

 

00:13:36:13 - 00:14:15:22

Speaker 2

It's a lot of green claims, a lot of  a lot of switches, too, to move towards things that are deemed sort of more recyclable or more green because, you know, maybe they're plant based, maybe they're compostable, that kind of thing. But I think the data around or getting a clearer understanding and giving a clear message about why things are made of the things that they're made of and not simply looking at material substitutions or going down the route of something that's perhaps in the long term is or maybe not even in the long term, maybe in the short term or creates a different set of issues or perhaps isn't

 

00:14:15:22 - 00:14:39:03

Speaker 2

being you know, perhaps that change isn't being done for the right reasons. Perhaps it's moved to Multi-Material kind of options instead and really to sort of focus industry and focus the, the government and the policy makers and the investors that the, the need for infrastructure and the need for communications is there. And, you know, because this material doesn't litter itself and it doesn't dispose of it.

 

00:14:39:03 - 00:15:06:21

Speaker 2

So if the infrastructure's there to collect it, the communications are there to ensure that it goes to the right place. And in effect this is extremely simplified. But then there is another problem: that material could be recycled. It is that challenge of trying to ensure that the materials are recyclable in the first instance that the points of or that they have a sort of circular plan to them at the point of manufacture.

 

00:15:07:19 - 00:15:16:23

Speaker 2

And the ultimate is it goes through that chain and ends up at the consumer that the things are in place to enable that consumer to dispose of it with confidence that it will be recycled.

 

00:15:17:13 - 00:15:48:18

Speaker 1

I think your I think it's it's it's asking why is it enough packaging material in the first instance and what are we going to do with it, making sure there's a lifecycle planning in place and that's going to be a long term effort from all of us to do that. I also read the other day something about the last three years having seen more challenges and more change for business than the last three decades, and I think I kind of agree with that.

 

00:15:51:21 - 00:16:10:11

Speaker 1

So, you know, business is under a lot of pressure, you know, and there's a lot of challenges to their supply chains. There's a lot of challenges for them to demonstrate, and there's a lot of challenges there for them. The rising cost of energy alone is, you know, must be at the front of business owners and managers and operators minds.

 

00:16:11:06 - 00:16:17:13

Speaker 1

Do you think businesses, in your experience in your group, are they still prioritising sustainability?

 

00:16:18:11 - 00:16:40:15

Speaker 2

I think so, yeah. I think obviously it's very difficult to make a sweeping statement for all businesses and like you say, the last four years have been extraordinary and probably unprecedented for a lot of them in terms of the demands, the changes that have had to be made. And of course, even, you know, at the start of lockdown two years ago now, the challenges are very different to what they are now.

 

00:16:40:15 - 00:17:08:08

Speaker 2

And over that time we've seen. So we've seen what driver shortages are in terms of materials if you look at retailers and collection and that kind of the kind of section we've seen fluctuating plastic recycled plastic prices in terms of, you know, the economics when it comes to including recycled content or using virgin polymers. We've seen consumer demands change based on the fact that there are more people staying at home.

 

00:17:08:08 - 00:17:29:07

Speaker 2

They're not going out and not buying on the go packaging as much. But I think they are, but certainly from our point of view, the members and the stakeholders that we engage with, the sustainability discussions are continuing the approaches to novel technology. I mean, I mean when it comes to sourcing and also reprocessing, those discussions and those trials are still taking place.

 

00:17:30:07 - 00:17:54:14

Speaker 2

Retailers, we see us continuing to roll out before store collections for hard to recycle materials and particularly plastic films. Local authorities have continued to communicate and improve their collections despite the fact that they are perhaps the first point along the collection point that has had some serious change, serious or the impact of COVID driver shortages, the closure of waste centres and that kind of thing.

 

00:17:55:17 - 00:18:15:21

Speaker 2

And also the members of sort of reps, plastic packs too, who are sort of targeted for moving unnecessary and are the harder to recycle packaging from their products. And all of those things are still taking place at the other end of the scale. I suppose it's the consumer that they're going to see their prices rise due to, you know, name the reason that they've been out.

 

00:18:15:21 - 00:18:39:17

Speaker 2

I suppose that could be anything that we're talking about. We could use this again and again and again if we were to. Yeah, their demands and priorities have changed. And ultimately they will be likely to have the biggest influence on the suppliers, the retailers, the manufacturers. So, you know, the challenges differ for each organisation and some will have a greater focus on sustainability and arguably did before COVID as well.

 

00:18:39:17 - 00:18:47:17

Speaker 2

But on the whole, it definitely seems that the discussion is still there and the interest in doing the right thing is largely still there as well.

 

00:18:48:12 - 00:19:15:23

Speaker 1

That's really good to hear. Really appreciate our I've only got a couple more questions for you, Tom. I really enjoyed it. I just looked at the clock and noticed how well I'm buying. I'm really enjoying the conversation. And maybe when we continue later, but we've got a taxing place. We've discussed how the tax is going to impact manufacturers or people using plastic packaging and importing materials over a certain volume.

 

00:19:17:12 - 00:19:40:18

Speaker 1

We know that if they don't include within that 30% of recycled black plastic packaging material, then they're subject to the tax. It's a I think the phrase and I may get told I'm wrong, which happens quite often. I think it's a big Rovian tax if I'm right in that it said we're taxing the behaviour we want to avoid.

 

00:19:41:03 - 00:20:05:03

Speaker 1

So we want to prevent people from or what we want to encourage is more recycled material inside that plastic packaging. And so we will then get the circular economy driving that will allow people to do more collections, more segregation gives the consumer a choice as well, you know, because hopefully it's a passive cost to pass through.

 

00:20:05:03 - 00:20:23:17

Speaker 1

Then the customer is directed to buy the products inside the right type of plastic packaging. And how long do you think it's going to take? You know, when do you think we'll see clear sustainable benefits from this tax and how will we know it's worthwhile and it's had an impact.

 

00:20:23:17 - 00:20:46:08

Speaker 2

It's difficult to say now I mean, at the moment, I mean, we're looking at a very sort of binary binary tax that is specifically focusing on plastic. I would argue that in isolation, it's sort of targeting it's not so much incentivizing the use of recycled content as it is disincentivizing the use of virgin plastics.

 

00:20:46:08 - 00:21:29:19

Speaker 2

I mean, it's, it's to move away from virgin plastic towards a substitute material that would potentially, you no clear that that piped in away from from having to pay the tax which which in isolation is a bit sort of you know it's a bit it would seem a bit shortsighted to sort of encourage that material substitution. But when we look at the of the the and the of the policy and legislation that's due to come in the extended producer responsibility, which should eco modulate these base of all materials based on their, their recyclability and their ultimately their environmental impacts, deposit return schemes, bans of single use, plastic and and associated calls for evidence on on

 

00:21:29:19 - 00:22:00:18

Speaker 2

levies, on specific items, the the changes to material streams that will come about through consistent collections and also dress I think you said the extended producer responsibility in particular that will really sort of drive the environmental benefits of the if you like it that that that's sort of the big piece of the jigsaw that will bring all the others in together, including in the tax, I think because I think it's important as well to remember that the tax itself doesn't sort of go down the rates of recyclability if you if you see what I mean.

 

00:22:00:18 - 00:22:22:07

Speaker 2

It's not it's not making packaging more recyclable. It might create a demand for recycled plastic to be able to hit that 30%. But in terms of the tax itself, it's not aiming to increase recycling. It's just looking to increase use of recycled content. And also, you know, it is a tax. Unlike the other legislation, this is a tax.

 

00:22:22:07 - 00:22:52:11

Speaker 2

It's money that's going to go to HMRC and we're not expecting any of the revenue that's generated to be reinvested in the industry or future infrastructure. That's all going to come about from extended producer responsibility in the current systems as well. So no, plastic prices can be quite volatile and variable, particularly the last few years that perhaps makes it difficult to see what the normal is at the minute and what we expect the normal to be.

 

00:22:52:12 - 00:23:20:08

Speaker 2

You know, if things will return to normal or maybe they already have and this is the sort of the environment and the demands and the requirements that are needed from consumers. This is what it's going to be going forward. So I think there needs to be a bit of a bit of bedding in time for the tax and to see how it works holistically with the other with the other policy that's due to come in and really sort of at that point, that's hopefully when we'll start to see the the bigger picture in terms of the benefits sustainably.

 

00:23:21:18 - 00:23:43:07

Speaker 1

Thanks has a really, really good answer clear again in my mind what this tax is actually about what it's trying to achieve and the fact that it is dependent if you like, it's not independent, is dependent on EPR, etc. to bring in the full effect. But it's a step in the right direction, in my opinion, certainly. Would you agree?

 

00:23:43:17 - 00:24:00:16

Speaker 2

Yeah, I think that's right. And you know, we've seen that there have been delays too, there's been delays to all of these really in one way or another in this. And there's some differences that still need to be ironed out, particularly between different devolved nations. How the different schemes are going to work with one another.

 

00:24:00:24 - 00:24:23:20

Speaker 2

You don't want one piece of legislation suggesting you have to move to an alternative because you want to avoid the tax and then get hit by eco module fees for EPR because you have something that's not recyclable or, you know, has a greater carbon impact. So there is yeah, there's a is a it's a complicated puzzle, but it is the you know, this is the first piece, if you like, of a of a much bigger picture.

 

00:24:24:15 - 00:24:43:20

Speaker 2

And so long as will be, as soon as industry continues to engage and so long as the the the correct sort, because some as it's done in the correct way and it's aiming at the correct sort of outcomes at the end when it all comes together, then that's when we'll really start to see the start, see the benefit, hopefully obvious.

 

00:24:44:22 - 00:24:49:19

Speaker 1

Tom, it's been 30 minutes. I think that's that.

 

00:24:50:07 - 00:24:51:07

Speaker 2

Been at lunchtime now.

 

00:24:51:15 - 00:25:07:08

Speaker 1

30 minutes and so much to digest. And I know that you and your organisation are out there to help anybody who's got questions, as are we. I'm looking forward to working more with you, the future on these projects. And I just wanted to thank you for your time this morning and for joining it.

 

00:25:07:19 - 00:25:28:08

Speaker 2

Thank you. And yeah, if there were any questions from the viewers, then we're happy to take them. And I would just say as well, that's HMRC as well. Very approachable and I've provided a lot of information. So it's worth getting a good night's sleep after going through a few of the documents that you have on that page.

 

00:25:28:08 - 00:25:44:23

Speaker 1

Well well when the insomnia strikes, I know what to go for. So what we're going to do is have an answer. Any questions that have come in offline, we'll go to people that way. But I think we've given an awful lot of information. You've been very generous with your knowledge, and I'm sure it'll stimulate questions in the future.

 

00:25:45:10 - 00:25:47:14

Speaker 1

For now, thank you for your time, John.

 

00:25:47:14 - 00:25:48:06

Speaker 2

Thank you very much.